When I opened my own dojo in 2019, in the midst of the pandemic, the Takeda family were the first people to contact me and offer some help, especially in regard to spreading the word about the dojo and including us in the local Aikido scene. Thanks to their help, the dojo could survive the pandemic and we have enjoyed a wonderful relationship ever since. As importantly, at a time of uncertainty and unavoidable frustration associated with trying to create something, I found Takeda Shihan's open approach to life, good, and bad, extremely inspirational, and it allowed me to deal with difficulties and see the bigger picture. As I got to knwo him better, I decided to ask him if I could sit down with him to learn more about his life and experience.
Guillaume Erard: Sensei, when were you born?
Takeda Yoshinobu: I was born on January 1, 1940. I was born in Tokyo, but then during World War II we moved to the countryside. So when I was small, until about 7 years old, I played in the mountains, valleys, rivers, and such places, so I love nature very much. It was good timing that we moved there. My parents didn't practice martial arts. My siblings didn't either. But what I started with was... I liked various things, like sword fighting games, I did various things, especially swimming, climbing mountains and swimming in rivers.
Guillaume Erard: You returned to Tokyo at age 7. How was post-war life?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Japan had just lost the war, and it was still a time of reconstruction, so there wasn't enough food and it was really tough. But I think that was good, because we could live on various simple foods, so I'm very grateful for that. That's how it was. Because I became one with nature. So I think it was a very happy time.
Guillaume Erard: Were you able to attend school for long?
Takeda Yoshinobu: No. I didn't go to university, and back then, few could afford school fees because everyone was poor. We couldn't go to higher schools, I went up to middle school. But even then, my father and mother were struggling, there was no money, so I was absent from school more often than attending. I did various part-time jobs myself, delivering milk in the morning. I would also buy natto it and sell it. It was interesting, natto. Natto is at the very top of the pyramid, because it's healthy, so conversely I was very happy.
Guillaume Erard: Do you still eat it now?
Takeda Yoshinobu: I eat it now. Brown rice too. Brown rice too, I'm fortunate because I learned to appreciate simple foods.
Guillaume Erard: Did you first start martial arts at school?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Yes, the very first was judo, I think. In middle school, when I was about 16 or 17. But I didn't really like winning and losing, and then there was kendo, kendo was interesting. Very interesting. There was an elderly teacher, and I felt something very mysterious. The shinai is made of soft bamboo, right? Even though he hit me lightly, the tip of the shinai reached all the way to my back. He was a high ranked teacher. When I saw that I thought that it was really interesting.
Then I read various old books, and stories of old martial artists who would take rice bales - they weigh 60 kilograms - and toss them up with spear tips like this, and pile them up one after the other, "pop, pop". Such things apparently really happened, and seeing that I thought it was interesting, so I became interested in martial arts.
Guillaume Erard: From there you entered aikido?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Yes, I started when I was 20. In between I did various track and field, athletics, swimming, everything, and they were all enjoyable, but I wanted something more like martial arts, something mysterious, like in kendo when you go "pop" and it reaches here, or with the bales when you do this and the bales go pop pop into a pile, I was wondering if I could learn something like that, when an advertisement for aikido appeared in the newspaper. It said "mysterious martial art", because it was a secret up to now... So I went there right away.
Guillaume Erard: Did that advertisement have photos?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Photos? No, there weren't any. Just mysterious writing.
Guillaume Erard: What was the training atmosphere like back then?
Takeda Yoshinobu: It was interesting. I didn't understand anything, but regarding aikido, it wasn't very popular yet, so there weren't many students, but the teachers were amazing. People who are now deceased, like Tamura Sensei who went to France, and many other people were still beginners. First dan or so. And then there were Tohei Koichi Sensei, Yamaguchi Sensei too, Tada Sensei and others. Tada Sensei had just graduated from university, I think, and was saying he was going to do aikido professionally from now on. It was that kind of era. Really happy times. Arikawa Sensei was there too. There were many of them. They were all good teachers. Even if we were poor, it didn't matter at all. Because we liked each other.
Guillaume Erard: Where was the dojo, in Tokyo?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Sankei Dojo. Do you know Yurakucho?
Guillaume Erard: Yes.
Takeda Yoshinobu: Right near where the Shinkansen started running. Underground there.
Yurakucho
Guillaume Erard: Yes, I know it, it was a busy place, wasn't it?
Takeda Yoshinobu: There were many interesting people.
Guillaume Erard: I heard that famous people like the famous writer Nishima Yukio and the sumōtori turned wrestler Rikidōzan were training there at the time.
Takeda Yoshinobu: They weren't in that dojo, I mean that they were in the room next door.
Rikidozan
Guillaume Erard: They weren't doing aikido?
Takeda Yoshinobu: No. It was Rikitozan, so he did that sort of [physical] training. Mishima Yukio was there with thick wooden sword, going "ei! ei!"
Guillaume Erard: Ah, you never trained together...
Takeda Yoshinobu: I didn't. They were just a completely different world. We jut said "hello" or "good morning," that kind of thing only.
Guillaume Erard: What impression did you get from those people?
Takeda Yoshinobu: I don't know why, but I thought they were strange people. But Rikidozan was famous, he was a national hero. I didn't know Mishima Yukio very well yet. But there were soldiers, what do you call them, soldiers, private soldiers all around Mishima-san. And seriously going at it "ga-gan!" But his books, novels were really wonderful, he wrote beautiful books, so I thought he was interesting.
Mishima Yukio
Guillaume Erard: We have this image of Mishima as a sensitive writer, but also as a rather enthusiastic right-wing martial artist. I wonder whether those two aspects of his personality as a Japanese were distinct depending on the context he was in.
Takeda Yoshinobu: Even though he did "hey!" In Japan we think that you have to take care of your heart and your spirit. Japan lost the Second World War but it also defeated the heart of the Japanese people. They said that it shouldn't be. The Emperor always said that we should all get along with the people of the world but the Japanese forgot that. It was during the time when the Americans said that Japanese people were no good. But he wrote beautiful novels, really beautiful novels.
Guillaume Erard: I thought that budō had a bad image among the Japanese population for a long time because of its ties to what happened during the war.
Takeda Yoshinobu: In fact, I don't think Japanese people thought about martial arts much because martial arts had already become part of their normal lives, but due to the fact that the General Headquarters, the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers forbade kendo and the rest. We forgot the good things about kendo, that it wasn't about killing each other. That's a bit unfortunate. It's not a technique to kill each other, it's originally meant to clean the soul.
Guillaume Erard: How is it that the meaning of budō got to be so misused or misunderstood?
Takeda Yoshinobu: I don't know how it used to be, but originally, Japanese people didn't really like killing people but it was the war so train their body so that they wouldn't lose, right? That was the reason.
Guillaume Erard: The Second Doshu actually thought of the good aspects of martial arts as a way to restore Japanese people's self-respect.
Takeda Yoshinobu: It's about self-esteem, not material things. I really think so. Well, food is important, but we threw away our self-esteem and spirit and even though I was just a child, it saddened me.
Guillaume Erard: Back to Rikidozan, it seems there was some connection between him and Tohei Sensei. I always wonder if other celebrities like him were interested in aikido.
Takeda Yoshinobu: But around that time, various people, people who did judo, people who did karate, everyone came and did aikido. They found it mysterious. Because there were O Sensei and Tohei Sensei, when you did this, you'd go "koron" and be defeated. They found it very mysterious.
After that I don't know well. The most famous baseball Oh Sadaharu, a great superhero. He had a specific way to bat, on one leg. He hit with one leg up and really threw far. He learned that from studying Aikido.
Oh Sadaharu performing his trademark one-legged batting.
Guillaume Erard: He did not learn this from kenjutsu?
Takeda Yoshinobu: No, not that. It was interesting, a lot of different people were doing it.
Guillaume Erard: When you started aikido, which teacher's techniques did you try to imitate?
Takeda Yoshinobu: What was it... At first, at Sankei Dojo too, it was Tohei Koichi Sensei, that was easy to understand. I read Tohei-san's book, it said "Aikido in Daily Life." When I read that, I thought it looked interesting, like I could do it too, so I went, and he said "Can you see? Try extending ki, it won't bend." When I tried it, whether it didn't bend much or I was caught in a trick, I don't know, but from then it was interesting so I kept going.
Guillaume Erard: Who would you say was your main teacher?
Takeda Yoshinobu: The main one was Yamaguchi Sensei who had been teaching aikido in Burma. When he came back, I just happened to meet him. Yamaguchi Sensei opened a new dojo in a place called Roppongi, so I went there. Yamaguchi Sensei saw that I was practicing earnestly, that I was doing it with passion, so he said I could come. That's how it started.
Guillaume Erard: Was it difficult to enter Yamaguchi Sensei's group?
Takeda Yoshinobu: No, easy. "Takeda, come over here." That's all.
Guillaume Erard: But other people couldn't, right?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Right, not really, the Yamaguchi Sensei didn't like teaching large numbers of people.
Guillaume Erard: What particularly attracted you to Yamaguchi Sensei?
Takeda Yoshinobu: I don't know what it was, but the essential center ki, or speed, I didn't really understand, but frequency, there was probably a frequency. Resonance, something like that, a vibration. That just synchronized, so Yamaguchi Sensei probably also felt "Takeda, he's a strange guy but somehow interesting," so I think we were able to continue together for a long time. It wasn't about being good or bad at it. It's interesting. He was always changing.
Guillaume Erard: Where did that apsect of his personality come from?
Takeda Yoshinobu: I didn't know, something. But I thought he was an amazing person. He had been trained as a kamikaze special attack pilot during the war. One month before the end of the war, he became very confused about his life.
Guillaume Erard: Was that because Japan lost the war?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Yes yes, the war ended. After that, he was a very intelligent person, a bit philosophical... he was a philosophical person. He was someone who studied not things, but the world of mind and spirit, even though he could study that too, for instance, he had diplomatic qualifications. The Foreign Ministry, Foreign Office asked him "Please come and work with us," but he said "No no no, I'm not interested in that kind of thing now." Then he met O Sensei.
Guillaume Erard: So he met O Sensei after the war ended?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Yes, after the war ended. He took all the money he had at the time and went to Iwama, asking O Sensei to take him as a student. "O Sensei, please let me study."
Guillaume Erard: Because O Sensei was still living in Iwama at that time, right?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Yes, Iwama. He worked very hard, receiving instruction in practice. When his money ran out, he couldn't eat anymore, so he taught aikido here and there, receiving a little money to live on.
Guillaume Erard: How did the war affect his personality?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Kamikaze is a terrible thing, right? Becoming a candidate, training every day. But his heart was very pure. But thinking you have to make this suicide dive, I think you throw away unnecessary things. So I was lucky to meet Yamaguchi Sensei. That was the best thing. So young people and great people, various people, everyone became one.
Yamaguchi Sensei was very sensitive, he was kind to us but sharp, even when he wasn't holding a sword you felt like you'd be cut.
Guillaume Erard: Looking at Yamaguchi Sensei, it seemed like he was doing sword practice on people's bodies.
Takeda Yoshinobu: Yes yes yes. He used to saw "don't do such things, if you do such things instead, you'll become confused".
Guillaume Erard: Did Yamaguchi Sensei teach weapons?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Yes, but he wasn't teaching the forms or techniques that everyone thinks about, but I think he was researching universal gravity and such things for himself. Then it becomes a world where you don't fight with opponents but don't lose either.
So he always got angry when you said something wrong. Your way of thinking. He'd say it sharply. "Kimi!" It was interesting. That was enjoyable. Because he would teach us. Good for both of us.
Guillaume Erard: Did Yamaguchi Sensei's techniques change over time?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Yamaguchi Sensei was amazing. He was always watching properly. Other people's. He would also imitate the forms that new people were doing. The good parts. I think I'm also doing somewhat the same thing.
Guillaume Erard: Were his teachings difficult for young people to understand?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Very simple, very clear. What he was thinking. Not difficult. He said difficult things too, but he was straightforward. As I said before, he really talked from the heart with young people, with teenagers too.
Guillaume Erard: So there was less vertical relationship than with other teachers?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Different from that. More like "together." But very sharp in watching. More than sharp, transparent maybe. He looked at things with a transparent feeling. So if you did something a bit egotistical, "sha!" He was watching very well.
Guillaume Erard: Weren't you encouraged to practice at Hombu?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Rather than that, he said "Hombu has various teachers, so maybe Takeda-san wouldn't immediately understand what he's looking for". "If you'd like, I've made a new dojo, would you come there?" At that time, I was doing the most practice at Sankei Dojo, right? From morning to night. I changed jobs many times. Because I wanted to do aikido. I did many jobs. About 20 or 30. But aikido was fun. At such a time I met Yamaguchi Sensei.
Guillaume Erard: Did Yamaguchi Sensei teach students ukemi in such a special way?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Not really, not at all. But he threw skillfully, "pa!" But no injuries. It was interesting.
Guillaume Erard: You are known for using some techniques that attack from a distance without touching the opponent. Can you explain what that is like?
Takeda Yoshinobu: I don't try to explain it. Just being together, trying to feel each other's energy.
Guillaume Erard: Another teacher I saw doing that was Watanabe Sensei. Have you ever discussed this matter with him?
Takeda Yoshinobu: I don't know Watanabe Sensei well, I only heard about him from people. But I did hear that he was doing quite a bit of distant striking. I don't really know.
Guillaume Erard: When you do this no-touch Aikido during demosntrations, aren't you worried that it could be misunderstood?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Anything is OK. I don't try to explain it. If you want to connect with me, we can do it, but if people don't want to, it's OK.
Guillaume Erard: Besides Yamaguchi Sensei, did you practice much with other teachers at the Hombu Dojo?
Takeda Yoshinobu: I didn't attend other teachers' practices much. I would go when Yamaguchi Sensei was always teaching.
Guillaume Erard: Did Yamaguchi Sensei talk much about O Sensei?
Takeda Yoshinobu: He didn't talk much about him. But because he had been together with O Sensei, it was like a father and child relationhip. Tamura Sensei was always accompanying them too, moving together.
Guillaume Erard: Did you have opportunities to train with O Sensei?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Because Yamaguchi Sensei was teaching at the Hombu Dojo, I always went with him, and there I met O Sensei too, and I was sometimes thrown by him, but briefly.
Guillaume Erard: In what context was that?
Takeda Yoshinobu: He would come to the dojo for a short time, "Hello everyone, good work." Then, "Come get a wooden sword" "Yaaaa!" "OK, I'm going to the toilet for a bit." He would come back the same way and then "Yaaaa!" again, and "Well, please practice more." That kind of feeling. It was interesting.
Guillaume Erard: Could you understand O Sensei's words?
Takeda Yoshinobu: I understood sometimes, but it was difficult. But somehow, resonance, vibration? That came through, so even if I didn't understand the words, I understood.
Guillaume Erard: Besides religious speeches, did O Sensei try to explain technical details?
Takeda Yoshinobu: In what he was doing daily, O Sensei didn't really teach "do this or that." Even when going "gwa!" he didn't say "go ahead, imitate this." Just "go ahead."
Guillaume Erard: The old teachers seem to have been like that.
Takeda Yoshinobu: Many people were like that. They gradually became kinder, or rather, they ma made more effort to make many people understand, giving hints "do this, do this," but old teachers didn't really do such things much.
Guillaume Erard: Was there no real educational system?
Takeda Yoshinobu: There was, but not very systematic. "Do this," "grab firmly," that's all. They didn't say "do this." "Hold! Strike!"
Guillaume Erard: Compared to now, were more techniques being taught?
Takeda Yoshinobu: I don't know much. Rear techniques, single-hand grab, about that much. Nothing else after that. Irimi, tenkan and such. They didn't teach detailed things much. More "try harder," or "do it seriously." But even for examinations, especially Yamaguchi Sensei was a philosopher, so he really wanted to convey inner things, so he didn't explain much after all.
Guillaume Erard: You said that you got thrown by O Sensei, how did it feel?
Takeda Yoshinobu: A little, just occasionally when going around, when he came to Kamakura, Kisshomaru Sensei and Yamaguchi Sensei brought O Sensei. At the police station in front of the station, with a small group, I was thrown a little at that time.
When he threw you, we just became one. You were absorbed. I felt like we were in the same world, that kind of feeling. O Sensei had that ability to become one with you. It was interesting. It wasn't like techniques or that kind of feeling. You got absorbed. Or to put it another way, it was like moving together. Rememberign that feeling is very helpful for me now. Moving together. Probably it's soaked in deep places, somewhere. And maybe O Sensei stimulated some part in me, tick-tock, and it's coming out now.
Guillaume Erard: Weren't you afraid when he threw you?
Takeda Yoshinobu: Not at all, not at all. It was warm. But amazing. When he said "strike" and you would go like this, you were already absorbed. It didn't matter. O Sensei didn't do much.
In a sense, you touched but couldn't hold. Moving together. So really, strong or hard, you felt that because there's isn't any resistance here, you've become one. Because mind and body have become one. There isn't any controlling. O Sensei had his own world.
Guillaume Erard: In O Sensei's world, you had to follow O-Sensei's rules... (laughs)
Takeda Yoshinobu: Well, maybe a little (laughs). But I'm not trying to imitate O Sensei either, just that the stimulation, stimulation there might be coming alive a bit, I feel.
